Discussion on Speed, Seat Belts, Drunk Driving

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MSI
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Discussion on Speed, Seat Belts, Drunk Driving

Post by MSI »

On linkedin i re-posted an article which told about a webinar which included investigation of crashes that included Impaired driving, Speed & Seatbelts

Prefaced my posting with: A response to that posting was the following:
  • The fixation with a dial is a distraction from reality. Such a shame the quest for blame stops helping the majority of people who thought they were being safe when surprise events unfolded around them leading them to having an accident.
    So much easier to use herd mentality to point fingers and confirm biases than to actually help people become safer.
I started posting a response but exceeded the character count so simply post it here:
  • A Dial?
    Not sure what you mean? You mean dial in a cause as in trying to determine the MAJOR REASONS for crashes since at least the 1960s?
    DUI, speeding, Seat Belts and now more than ever major causes.
    Currently DISTRACTED DRIVING
    is an added challenge to highway and vehicle safety
    You suggest education?
    We have done a lot of research in highway safety for FHWA and NHTSA and others trying to make roads safer. And in one contract on low shoulders i suggested Education (simply training drivers to slow and pull away from the shoulder to avoid the low shoulder slingshot effect)
    But education is not considered a solution.
    It can help.
    However, finding out the major causes of crashes and injuries and trying to build safer vehicles and roadways is the most direct approach.
    Education can help people slow down, drive safer BUT they will not all obey...
    • throw emotions into the driving task,
    • throw talking or texting on the phone and
    • not paying attention to the driving task.
    crashes happen.
    You can't train people to PAY ATTENTION and SLOW DOWN, and how to react in a possible crash situation.
    You can try
    but...
    One research contract we did resulted in a report Effects of Speed on Accident Frequency? by RARU (now CASR) in Australia was the effects of speeding (ONLY investigated crashes with no DUI etc) and w/r to injuries in crashes and they found 10Kph over the speed limit is as lethal as DUI!.
    Has anyone listened? Have they increased the penalties for speeding to reflect that?
    No
    Education is important and essential however you can't train ALL the people to slow down, pay attention and not drink and drive.
    and Look at the push back in the US against red light cameras
    And have yet to see many speed cameras.
    Penalizing THE CAR apparently gets some people up in arms (having to pay for speeding!)
    We need to ENFORCE Speed laws and red light running!
MSI
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Re: Discussion on Speed, Seat Belts, Drunk Driving

Post by MSI »

and more posted to the thread...
  • From the person who posted the first response which i responded to above,
    another response from them:
    • You use a hindsight biased blame narrative to regurgitate the same old finger pointing that has failed to help people avoid the majority of accidents for 80 years.
      This goes back far further than the 1960's, try starting from the 3E's thinking of the 1930's that was to distract from the poor safety record of the American motor industry.
      "It's not the Engineering, we also need Education and Enforcement."
      Finding someone to blame in hindsight of an accident, using speed when the cause was not obvious, does not give a balanced view of why accidents happen and why for the vast majority of the time people manage within a flawed system to stay safe.
      Safety thinking in other safety critical environments has moved on from linear hindsight biased blame narratives that wrongly assume accidents only happen to a minority of naughty people, shame road safety is still stuck in the dark ages.
      video1 video2 video3 video4 video5 video6 video7 PDF

My Response:
  • Calling determination of the causes of a crash 'hindsight blame game' is interesting, but naive.
    And concluding placing blame on folks who speed, drive drunk, don't use safety devices or don't pay attention to the driving function as "naughty"...
    Science designs safety systems and unless they are used, shit happens.
    Humans were not created to "drive" or travel at 20-100 mph and be able to perceive and react in time to avoid any 'conflict' as in crash
    Traffic laws were created to try to reduce the problems
    Vehicles are designed to try to accommodate folks who refused to wear safety belts etc
    Self driving is the rage or at least driver assistance for staying in lane, braking and crash avoidance to try to reduce or eliminate the time required for human perception and reaction and vehicle response.
    It takes time!
    Safety is a process NEEDING hindsight to focus on what is the most lethal consequences of driving and try to reduce incidents of them.
    See my book review “The Sack of Detroit: General Motors and the End of American Enterprise] about Nader and safety...has a lot of history in it.
    Insulting those who work in highway and vehicle safety and don't adhere to your 'new way' of thinking is a great sales pitch!
    I'll give those video a watch and let you know what i think.
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Re: Discussion on Speed, Seat Belts, Drunk Driving

Post by MSI »

and more more more posted
  • again you rush for blame, most accidents do not happen to those breaking the rules. The bulk of road traffic accidents happen to normal everyday people doing normal everyday thing, yet surprised by unexpected events.
    Those tasked with attributing blame in hindsight of accidents are very good at their jobs, well done. But it is only a fraction of reality and the narrative is built on faulting people rather than understanding them.
    We have had this same narrative regurgitated over and over again, your reality as prescribed does not match our reality as done. I do not know anyone who has not been caught by the speed tax. Yet the majority of accidents happen at less than the posted speed limit. Safety and compliance being totally different things.
    Such a shame you are so blinkered by bias on the quest for vengeance you only want to punish people via a linear hindsight biased blame narrative rather than learning how to better help people avoid accidents.
    Hopefully others will read this and be more open to learning how to improve safety.
    For 30 years I used to preach the BBS narrative -
    video1
    but learning has improved now. website

My Response
  • what is a "normal everyday things"?
    Perhaps 50% of folks in EVERY CRASH may have no blame...but if someone is speeding or texting/talking/not paying attention, they mis-judge timing, they run a red light/stop sign/fail to yield, they lose control of their vehicle
    Is that normal everyday things?
    again your approach is naive...
    For example: Science and education say "wear masks and get vaccinated" to combat COVID. But do people do that?
    • Hell NO! They got a right to freedom of choice and they choose to risk DEATH and/or spreading the virus and killing others!!

    Education and laws help
    • But your approach to ignore the past and trying to educate the bell curve of reality is somewhat silly.
      Many people respond and improve with education..others will refuse or ignore what they are told.
      We design laws to accommodate that 5-10% (or more) who flagrantly disobey laws, speed, don't pay attention to the driving task, take risks...
    it will help some...
    but ONLY through forensic investigations an accumulation of crash data can we find where and why folks are crashing and dying.
    So then we can focus our time and energy on improving those scenarios and reducing deaths
    • first the most frequent types of crashes which cause death
      • which we learn through investigation and reconstruction and classification...
      and then
    • secondly trying to reduce the deaths and destruction in ALL crashes.
    This can ONLY be accomplished through forensic evaluations of crashes through which we can we learn and improve...
    As the saying goes...
    • Those who do not learn (from) history are doomed to repeat it
    • I added the (from) since forensic investigations are essential to learn the history of crashes (speeds, control inputs, environmental factors, roadway/vehicle design issues)'
      That helps us determine what works and doesn't work, and hypothize how we might reduce or prevent the consequences of crashes.
      That's HINDSIGHT and using it to design and plan and legislate to improve the situation

    let me also mention airbags:
    • they were originally designed BECAUSE people wouldn't wear seat belts
      but then
      they KILLED out of position or smaller people so now
      you MUST wear a belts for the airbag to function!
      • and stranger yet...the DeltaV for deployment is still at 9-14 mph which was set for unbelted occupants...it needs to be increased to NOT deploy until 20-25 mph!

      As Lyle says...(it) wasn't good, but (it) had good intentions!
    Hindsight is 20/20, future generations will be born with eyes on their butts!!
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Re: Discussion on Speed, Seat Belts, Drunk Driving

Post by MSI »

Dec 2023:
While posting a note on the Princess Diana Crash investigation we did for 48 Hours/CBS News, we referenced this post since for that tradgedy: I added a link to this forum topic but now have found that the initial Linkedin post link and responses are GONE!
  • Guess you can wipe clean discussions on Linkedin which don't support your agenda (which the folks i was discussing Speed, Seat Belts & Drunk Driving apparently did for some reason?!!
MSI
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Re: Discussion on Speed, Seat Belts, Drunk Driving

Post by MSI »

Another related posting on Linkedin
which starts
  • "I used to assume these crashes should be easy to avoid, but training has shown me that research has proven otherwise:"
and a link in the posting included the statement
  • "Human error accounts for 94 to 96% of all automobile crashes. Sometimes it's your error sometimes it's someone else's, and sometimes it's both of you.
    Keep alert. Look as far ahead as possible so you can be prepared to take action when an obstacle ends up parked in the middle of your lane.
    "
see the post linked above

_______________
MY COMMENT
We probably need to throttle back the 90%-95% attributable to 'human error'...
there are other factors.
Back in 2021 I had a post and someone from a group safetydifferently respond to a discussion on Speed, Seat Belts & DUI with
(and i quote, this is NOT ME saying this)
  • "You use a hindsight biased blame narrative to regurgitate the same old finger pointing that has failed to help people avoid the majority of accidents for 80 years."
i don't agree
BUT
I post as it does make you think and reconsider what might be the actual % causation factor for drivers since also roadway design and controls, lighting, visibility, and other things are probably more than only 5-10%.
See the link for the discussion (they deleted their Linkedin responses but i've included them in my forum as always good to have different perspectives...to be taken with a grain of salt...)

And i lnked to the Top of this forum post
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